Turkey Balance

THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD IS ON TURKEY IN THE CONTEXT OF EUROPE+ 10k 100 cities IN BOTH 1v1 AND TEAM GAMES WHICH ARE THE CURRENT DEFAULT SETTINGS FOR COMPETITIVE PLAY IN AFTERWIND. WHILST CONCERNS ABOUT TURKEYS STRENGTH IN WORLD/EURASIA GAMES ARE JUSTIFIED PLEASE TRY TO FRAME SUGGESTIONS BY THEIR MERIT TO THE ABOVE MAP SETTINGS


Hello,

Turkey is generally seen as being the strongest country in Europe and not without reason: It has the highest reinforcements by a considerable margain and the ability to attack a vast area of Europe on turn 1 which has huge ramifications for the player Turkey is fighting. The consensus is that Turkey requires a nerf however there is no agreement on HOW to go about it. In this thread I will offer and explain the various options for how to nerf Turkey. I will also for fairness include an option to not nerf Turkey - This vote will need a considerable majority to be acceptable as by default every other option is vote to nerf Turkey.

I expect votes to have rational justification and 9999 votes for DONT NERF TURKEY without any posts to explain it will be treated as anomalous votes.

I am also opening this thread for other suggestions but they need real justification. If there is enough support for an idea not included in the poll I will remake it.

I will now outline the various options with some explanation and possible results (hopefully with as little bias as possible)

A nerf to several smaller cities

This nerf is to slightly lower Turkeys first turn infantry and production without effecting its ability to expand into countries like Italy or the Balkans. By taking away reinforcements from cities like Diyarbakir, Antalya and Adana the gap between Turkeys starting units and the rest of Europe is reduced slightly without really effecting Turkeys potency and unique status as the BIG country in Europe and the unique playstyle that comes from that.
This change does not adress the fact that Turkey can expand West very strongly and will only affect Turkey over the course of a long game. It will also mean their expansion into the Caucaus is weakened however this is not a particularly important part of Turkeys game.

Harshness rating: 3/10

Removal of Antalya

In terms of reinforcements this nerf is equivelant to the above suggestion however it is harsher because it removes an entire city as opposed to spreading the cost of the nerf.
Antalya is generally used to take Greece via. a Transport and units purchased in Adana. The effect of removing Antalya is not only does Turkey lose those three reinforcements but Adana also becomes much weaker because it lacks a way to get its units into a coastal city in one turn. By removing this city Turkey has less units to send West and so cannot take Greece-Rome-Romania-Serbia-Bulgaria which it normally does.
This will effect Turkey a lot in the long run.

Harshness rating: 5/10

Find a way to block Greece

This is a very simple change (but maybe not for Ivan and Amok) which denies Turkey the ability to take Rome from Izmir on turn 1. There is very little more to discuss. Cities remain the same and so Turkey certainly has the firepower to remain a major threat, however its first turn is severely curtailed.

Harshness rating: 5/10

Removal of Bursa

Again, the removal of an entire city, however this one is 5 population and is in the West of Turkey and so very important for expansion. Bursa is generally used to take Bulgaria, however units can be moved into Izmir or Istanbul and sent just about anywhere. This nerf removes Turkeys major reinforcement advantage with the long term repurcussions of that being felt in a weaker turn 1 and Bursas important position meaning a 5 population nerf is felt more keenly here than if Adana and Diyarbakir were removed for example.

Harshness rating: 7/10

Increase Income

Turkey recieves a boost to its income and so it's cost is increased and funds reduced for the first turn. This does not really limit its turn 1 by a lot as Turkey is generally used by low income strats such as Imperialist. Indeed, with more funds in the long run this may increase Turkeys power. If the income is increase but still able to be picked in a 10k game it's essential dynamic and strength remains unchanged and may not be strong enough. A neutral Turkey will defend with Infantry with this change.

Harshness rating: 2/10

Increase Income so it cannot be picked in a 10k game

This is essentially the doomsday button for Turkey. Turkey will be incredibly strong in settings higher than 10k. I cannot help but be biased here and say this is a terrible idea but one I feel compelled to include. A neutral Turkey will defend with Infantry with this change.

Harshness rating: 10/10

Nooooooooooooooooooo!
I <3 Turkey :'(

Yes I admited that Turkey is OP. It isn't that powerful in real life
But it is just a game right? Also I think it would make Europe games a bit boring without the turkey strength

I am in favour of removing Antalya. It will limit turkeys first turn expansion so it will have to choose between going italy, greece, or balkins. It will nerf turkey enough that it won't be able to steamroll 1v1 while still remaining competitive.

Nerfed to smaller cities means turkey will have to use more air planes or ways to transport

Other (Removal of Kebab)

I still think Turkey is fine the way it is. I havent had many problems with it.

I vote in favour of taking out Bursa. We've had plenty of time to mess around with Turkey since the Ukraine nerf, and it's clear that, once it has the Balkans and Italy, Turkey is unstoppable. Killing Bursa would severely limit western expansion, and make it more difficult to defend against a good Ukraine.

And, as was said, a simple population nerf would make it less omnipotent in 1v1s against the west.

p.s don't fix either glitches fully, transports going through small bits of land is 5/5 however this expansion in particular is quite powerful, and the hover over units to get them out is great as well, I can't tell you how many times it has saved me. Fairly common knowledge of both too, so not like it is an unknown glitch that elite players use to beat newer players

Ecrit par reckoner., 16.09.2012 at 17:48

Other (Removal of Kebab)

hehehehe i agreed remove kebab and baklava
anyway no chance for perfect balanced europe+ map if you fix turkey then ukraine will became again op,imposible for perfect balanced map

this my idea when you pick turkey you got 40 units for example if you pick small country like montenegro to got also 40 units that look balanced enough heheh all players to got same numbers of units small country will became more popular for playing

Ecrit par Fruit, 17.09.2012 at 00:36

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p.s don't fix either glitches fully, transports going through small bits of land is 5/5 however this expansion in particular is quite powerful, and the hover over units to get them out is great as well, I can't tell you how many times it has saved me. Fairly common knowledge of both too, so not like it is an unknown glitch that elite players use to beat newer players

I agree with this. We first need to start fixing bugs like this (moving a transporter over land) before nerfing or boosing anything. When Turkey isn't able to take Italy in first turn, it might help a lot.

Ecrit par Puzzles, 16.09.2012 at 15:26

I am in favour of removing Antalya. It will limit turkeys first turn expansion so it will have to choose between going italy, greece, or balkins. It will nerf turkey enough that it won't be able to steamroll 1v1 while still remaining competitive.

This.

As I've already mentioned early in-game, the removal of Antalya means more than -3 units. It also means a strategical nerf wich aims to slow down Turkey's first turn expansion, which is, at the moment, the worst problem related with the country.