Ds Nerf

It is time to make this happen. Myself chess and desu orginally conceived the ds boost to give ds light defensive capabilities. The militia boost was an alternative to the previously existing 6 defence infantry which the admins nerfed without discussion. This boost was only ever meant to be a temporary beta. Then along came ivan with a new unforseen marine capacity upgrade adding further to ds' already unmatched expansion capabilities. We have tried it now and it is obviously too strong. It would be unfair of me to leave it in place just because i no longer duel and it doesn't affect me. I can see it needs to happen, the duelists see it needs to happen.

I think we should remove the militia defence boost. This will leave ds still a powerful competitive strat without destroying it completely. It was already an ok strat before any of the changes but the militia range and extra marine capacity should be enough to achieve what was originally intended. If anyone has any other suggestions i am all ears. I saw witch doctors suggestion of 7 attack ds helis. This too could work however it would probably require further amendment. I dont want to see ds rendered useless.

This will be my last alteration to the strategies, any further developements will have to come from future generations or our admins if they ever return to work on this game. This last change will leave the strats in the best shape theyve ever been in with all bar ra and hw having a competitive niche.

I am going to leave this thread up for a while before going to ivan. If anyone has any further insights/ideas/solutions please post them below. I am only interested in constructive and logical posts. Anything else will be ignored.

Allow me to take the liberty of pre-emptively striking off the usual trash that fills up these threads. No this is not just about ds ukraine. No this is not just about europe+. No scenarios and rp have no influence on strat balance. No ds is not being nerfed so laochra can enjoy pd supremacy. No we do not need to just learn how to counter a different playstyle. No clovis that laochra was proved wrong a year ago does not have anything to do with ds' current overpowered state. No waffel, just no.

I think that deals with most of it. Looking forward to the responses.

Inb4 flame war ( balkans too )

Ecrit par Waffel, 30.03.2017 at 10:14

Ecrit par Permamuted, 30.03.2017 at 10:14

No waffel, just no.

I see several possible ways to nerf ds

1) -1 att helies

This is maybe the most dramatic one. This might be a bit too much and ruin the feel and niche of DS

2) -1 or -2 def helies

This will allow DS to keep it's helicopter's offensive specialty, but it should make people think twice about spamming purely helies. As of now, helicopters have 5 def which makes them beefy and hard to kill. infantry get owned way too hard by helies currently. They have 4 def versus 8 att helies and trying to kill helies with infantry is costly. You're using 4 att infantry to attack 5 defense helies. Eitherway, defending or attacking with inf, you will lose a lot reinf wise because DS is too efficient at grinding infantry. Making it easier to kill helies will let DS keep the offensive specialty but also help people counter it.

3) -1 att infantry
DS has infantry that are as strong as imp infantry. Nerfing the attack on inf will reduce DS's insane expansion capability in a way that doesn't ruin the strategy

4) -1 def militia
This will encourage people to be more strategic with walling and defenses rather than rely on 6 def 8 hp militia (with gen) to stack their capital and zerg everywhere else. The +1 range buff to militia was already enough and the extra +1 def was overkill.

Ecrit par Checkmate., 30.03.2017 at 10:16

Inb4 flame war ( balkans too )

How do you explain the rapid population decline for Croatians and Serbs in Bosnia since the start of the 20th century?

This is because I beat you in that Europe+ duel with DS Ukraine isn't it?

I dont think the strategy should be changed, just how expensive it is. Helis are unparralelled at expansion: that makes them fun to use... dont change that, just change the price that players have to pay for them. Frankly, every strat change makes me want to play this game less and less, you have to relearn the game with every adjustment and when some knob comes along with a wanky new way to beat DS or RA or Blitz because I havent adapted yet, it pisses me off. Those strats were fun... changing them isnt. Changing cost makes a bit of sense atleast and is easier to adapt to

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 12:22

I dont think the strategy should be changed, just how expensive it is. Helis are unparralelled at expansion: that makes them fun to use... dont change that, just change the price that players have to pay for them. Frankly, every strat change makes me want to play this game less and less, you have to relearn the game with every adjustment and when some knob comes along with a wanky new way to beat DS or RA or Blitz because I havent adapted yet, it pisses me off. Those strats were fun... changing them isnt. Changing cost makes a bit of sense atleast and is easier to adapt to

Pho your still a newer player, adapt and get gud noob xD Games that are successful based on there competitive attributes constently change the meta to keep the game from stagnating, just look at games like dota, league, overwatch, smite.

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 12:22

I dont think the strategy should be changed, just how expensive it is. Helis are unparralelled at expansion: that makes them fun to use... dont change that, just change the price that players have to pay for them. Frankly, every strat change makes me want to play this game less and less, you have to relearn the game with every adjustment and when some knob comes along with a wanky new way to beat DS or RA or Blitz because I havent adapted yet, it pisses me off. Those strats were fun... changing them isnt. Changing cost makes a bit of sense atleast and is easier to adapt to

Why do people keep bringing up the bullshit of having to adapt to change. I've been playing long enough to see every iteration of every strat.
Everytime the strats were changed, I barely had to put any effort if any into quickly relearning.

Infact the expansions and gameplay for most strats have been mostly the same. The only thing that changed is the meta as people discover new expansions, more effective rushes, etc....

People need to stop bitching at change because it's good to have something new every once in a while.

Also please dont give me that bs about admins having to focus on mapmaker etc rather than balancing strats.
First off it takes very little effort to go in and change some variables and secondly, the admins arent spending their time debating strat changes, the players are and they only listen to the conclusions of our discussion.

Ecrit par Witch-Doctor, 30.03.2017 at 13:38

Ecrit par Helly, 30.03.2017 at 12:38

Lao asked for suggestions, I made a suggestion.

The priority should be player retention, I'm not saying DS isn't overpowered, I'm saying overpowered strategies are more fun to play. If we accepted that there would always be some degree of misbalance between strategies we would be able to move onto the next best thing....Having 6 overpowered but fun strats and 6 niche less used strats that only great players know how to use... there would be more users.

If not then I think it would be a good idea to increase the price of DS helis so you cant produce as much.

if you disagree with me, cool. but this isnt a place to start an argument as lao said....

caveat... dota, league, overwatch, smite all have incredibly large user bases.

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 13:49

Ecrit par Witch-Doctor, 30.03.2017 at 13:38

Ecrit par Helly, 30.03.2017 at 12:38

Lao asked for suggestions, I made a suggestion.

The priority should be player retention, I'm not saying DS isn't overpowered, I'm saying overpowered strategies are more fun to play. If we accepted that there would always be some degree of misbalance between strategies we would be able to move onto the next best thing....Having 6 overpowered but fun strats and 6 niche less used strats that only great players know how to use... there would be more users.

If not then I think it would be a good idea to increase the price of DS helis so you cant produce as much.

if you disagree with me, cool. but this isnt a place to start an argument as lao said....

caveat... dota, league, overwatch, smite all have incredibly large user bases.

Strats that are horridly broken need to be fix. You cant just claim that letting people have some OP strats would solve the problem.

DS is a prem strat and having a stupidly powerful prem strat would drive nonprem players away. Sure
some of them might buy prem but is it worth losing people who could have bought prem too.

You cant just have everybody use DS. The way the maps are made doesnt allow this. In a turk versus ukr duel, ukr can go DS and get an unfair advantage. Turk cant just pick DS to counter.

Ecrit par Witch-Doctor, 30.03.2017 at 13:56

Last reply. I never said you should make OP strats premium. Blitz and RA were non premium and a few years ago people used to use them because they were easy.

I can say that having OP strats would solve the problem of user retention because theres a declining userbase and it correlates with strats being tampered with.

I didnt say anything about making DS playable everywhere or anything about how the map is made.

Its ironic that you call the strategy broken, when the game it belongs to is fucked, because it fails to appeal to new players like it used to. Notice how i mentioned new players, not older ones like myself.

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 14:16

Ecrit par Witch-Doctor, 30.03.2017 at 13:56

Last reply. I never said you should make OP strats premium. Blitz and RA were non premium and a few years ago people used to use them because they were easy.

I can say that having OP strats would solve the problem of user retention because theres a declining userbase and it correlates with strats being tampered with.

I didnt say anything about making DS playable everywhere or anything about how the map is made.

Its ironic that you call the strategy broken, when the game it belongs to is fucked, because it fails to appeal to new players like it used to. Notice how i mentioned new players, not older ones like myself.

Are you sure the game is declining due to strat changes or is it because games decline over time?

OP strats wont help player retention. The problem is the massive learning curve and the sheer amount of grinding needed to get upgrades to make the game playable.

I've grinded up from low rank on three different accounts and the number one thing that blows was how hard it was to compete without enough upgrades

Trying to play without faster inf, cheaper inf, air trans capacity, etc... Is horrendous, even with premium.

If you want player retention, stop pointing the finger at changing strats. Get rid of the insane grinds noobs have to go through and lessen the prem to non prem gap.

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 14:16

I can say that having OP strats would solve the problem of user retention because theres a declining userbase and it correlates with strats being tampered with.

I would imagine it correlates with the intrinsic niche nature of the game, the bugs, the inactive admins and consequential lack of developement, polish and finish. Not to mention the promises that were never delivered on. More significant problems dont you think? The vast majority of the active players don't even notice strat changes to be declining because of them. Only competitive players and those who read the forums do. You're just making this point because you dont like the changes. The decline as i see it began in 2015 shortly after you joined atwar. COINCIDENCE?

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 13:49

Lao asked for suggestions, I made a suggestion.

i asked for suggestions in a ds nerf thread. I also asked not to fill this thread up with trash posts. You literally made this argument in a similar thread a year ago and ignored all reason. God i hate this community.

I'd personally suggest making infs unusable at all, by giving them a +10 cost and -1 nerf. They give too much expansion capability t1 and are actually strong despite the strat not being based around them. Most of the time buying inf to take the cities is a better investment than buying marines and their range justifies the cost. DS is all about expanding fast but at low unit cost, and inf stats certainly prevent marines from being usable.

Other than that I'd say helis deserve a -1 defense nerf. Having the same defense as DS milli and being really versatile is kinda too op, as if they weren't already strong at attacking.

-1 nerf to heli defence and -1 attack to infantry is my idea.
Players would reconsider full heli spam on smaller maps and the - to the infantry wont make it so easy to expand on the eu+ map,its currently maybe the strongest meta on competitive atwar...
Ds poland ds ukr ds spain verrrrrrrrrrrry stronk

Well the stats are ok as they seem...(exept ra)

Ecrit par Brsjak, 30.03.2017 at 15:30

Well the stats are ok as they seem...(exept ra)

No they arent..many on the premium strategies need buffs & nerfs,compare hw to lb or ds

Ecrit par 4nic, 30.03.2017 at 15:37

Ecrit par Brsjak, 30.03.2017 at 15:30

Well the stats are ok as they seem...(exept ra)

No they arent..many on the premium strategies need buffs & nerfs,compare hw to lb or ds

i have neaither of them ;-;

Ecrit par Brsjak, 30.03.2017 at 15:38

Ecrit par 4nic, 30.03.2017 at 15:37

Ecrit par Brsjak, 30.03.2017 at 15:30

Well the stats are ok as they seem...(exept ra)

No they arent..many on the premium strategies need buffs & nerfs,compare hw to lb or ds

i have neaither of them ;-;

-1 atack for inf and -1 def for helis

Ecrit par Permamuted, 30.03.2017 at 14:58

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 14:16

I can say that having OP strats would solve the problem of user retention because theres a declining userbase and it correlates with strats being tampered with.

I would imagine it correlates with the intrinsic niche nature of the game, the bugs, the inactive admins and consequential lack of developement, polish and finish. Not to mention the promises that were never delivered on. More significant problems dont you think? The vast majority of the active players don't even notice strat changes to be declining because of them. Only competitive players and those who read the forums do. You're just making this point because you dont like the changes. The decline as i see it began in 2015 shortly after you joined atwar. COINCIDENCE?

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 13:49

Lao asked for suggestions, I made a suggestion.

i asked for suggestions in a ds nerf thread. I also asked not to fill this thread up with trash posts. You literally made this argument in a similar thread a year ago and ignored all reason. God i hate this community.

Yeah you're right the game is fucked, so why not fuck it up some more?

Go ahead and make your changes to DS, the domain for AW expires in 6 months, not like they'll last longer than that. Its not like servers cost money or anything.

Ecrit par Brsjak, 30.03.2017 at 15:30

Well the stats are ok as they seem...(exept ra)

RA is fine, I've played it and it's perfectly useable.

-2 att for ds infs and ds is fixed.

-2 range for ds inf and -20 or -10 cost for anti-air in general

I see a few people have mentioned an infantry attack nerf. I really don't think that will make a difference. It will only affect ds' turn 1 and only very slightly. It's the helis with the 2 marine capacity that give ukraine it's expansion power, the infantry are almost irrelevant in comparison. Especially since you dont produce them after t1 since the militia are more powerful defensively. I saw someone mentioning the cost efficiency of the infantry. Again in situations where you have the spawn but not the money, you are better off finding ways to use the even more cost efficient militia to expand than the inf. Just looking at expansions i use the nerf wouldnt affect them at all. Except perhaps with low starting rein countries like serbia or austria in 5k.

Ecrit par Guest, 31.03.2017 at 03:37

-20 or -10 cost for anti-air in general

There's also a strat called sky menace which doesn't need more powerful counter units. Especially since their range was recently boosted.

Ecrit par Guest, 31.03.2017 at 03:37

-2 range for ds inf and -20 or -10 cost for anti-air in general

Stop abuse sm

Ecrit par Phoenix, 30.03.2017 at 13:49

If we accepted that there would always be some degree of misbalance between strategies we would be able to move onto the next best thing....Having 6 overpowered but fun strats and 6 niche less used strats that only great players know how to use... there would be more users.

Cthulhu's idea was to make the strategies so unique that they excel at what they were made for, their niche...

But the whole point of balance is tricky. In fact I believe the word has been misused so much then and now.